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Entries tagged with “Interview”.

A company organizing outdoor trips for English-speaking tourists in Taiwan

Taiwan’s real beauty is not be be found in the cities, but in the great outdoors and preferably off the beaten track. But many tourists wonder: How to get to those places, how to prepare and how to avoid getting lost?

Album: German TV Returns to Taiwan

Hualien Outdoors is a company specializing in trips and activities including hiking in Taroko Gorge and river rafting. On their website, you find this statement:

We don’t take people into the outdoors because we have to, we all have day jobs. We do it because we enjoy sharing Hualien with our guests. The feeling of sharing this place with someone is wonderful, and addicting.


The guys at Hualien Outdoors also post videos of these trips on their Youtube channel.

I interviewed Matt Hopkins, one of the company’s founders.

Matt Hualien Outdoors

Some time ago, I was busy preparing stuff for a German TV team coming over from Tokyo. We wanted to film some amazing Taiwan mountain scenery, and a friend put me in touch with Matt, as he was „the guy in the know.“

I contacted Matt, and he gave me some extremely useful advice on two places we ended up visiting:

  • Jhuilu (Zhuilu) Old Trail (錐麓古道), the showpiece of Taroko Gorge: A path less than a meter wide with a 500m vertical drop on one side.
  • Little Chi Lai (Qilai) Trail (小奇萊步道) at Mt. Hehuan (合歡山): A wonderful, easy trail that gives a good idea of the high alpine forest and views of Taiwan.

We talked about Matt coming along for the filming, but did not find a suitable time. So, in order to learn more about the idea behind Hualien Outdoors, I asked Matt some questions by e-mail.

Album: German TV Returns to Taiwan

Customized trips and two-day packages

What makes your services special?

„We are the only western style out tripping business on the East Coast of Taiwan, which is amazing considering the vast beauty of this area. We offer small, customized trips to places away from the hordes of tourists in tour buses that have descended on the Hualien and Taroko Gorge areas in recent years.

„We take guests to rivers where the water is safe enough to drink, temples hidden in the mountains and other off-the-beaten-path areas that other companies either don’t go to, or don’t know about. Trips are small and flexible, food is locally sourced and of the highest quality and trips are not based on a menu of ‚famous‘ places. Each group gets a different trip based on their preferences and expectations of a trip outdoors. We do trips for everyone from families with infants to world traveling adrenaline junkies and everyone in between.“

Why did you feel you were the right person to start this company?

„Having lived in Hualien exploring the mountains and rivers of the area for the past seven years, I found myself in the right place at the right time. I have run a bilingual outdoor school for local children for the past three years, and this business has evolved from that. So many friends were asking to go out into the mountains with us and the kids, I decided to expand the business from a school to an out tripping company in 2011. So far the experiment is going well! There is a small but very experienced group of people that help out part-time taking guests into the rivers and mountains of Hualien.“

Wilderness experiences in Taiwan

Who should get in touch with you, and who should not?

„Hualien Outdoors might not be the best choice for those people who want a simple trip to the most famous places in Taroko that can be easily reached from the road and do not need permits. There are many cheaper options for those types of trips: taxi, bus, tour bus etc. Those looking for a more unique, personalized and off-the-beaten-path wilderness experience, with a little more physical challenge, would most enjoy our trips. Especially if they love water sports. River tracing is a sport like no other!“

What were some weird or moving things that happened during your trips?

„Once, on a trip up to Zhuilu Old Trail, I had a guest who kept asking questions about the cliff walk. How long, how wide, how high up, things like that. Once we got to the cliff face itself he stopped, lifted up his shirt, and revealed a home-made harness. He proceeded to ‚clip into‘ the safety rope and do the cliff walk attached to the cliff face by a piece of webbing.

„General speaking though, most people know what they are getting into when they come on a trip us. They do their research. Even so, most river tracing trips there is usually someone who relaxes on a rock and says ‚this is the most beautiful place I have ever been‘. That is a great feeling to take people to places like that. Sharing this place with people can be very addictive.“

River tracing on Taiwan’s east coast

Are there places in Taiwan that you would you really like to take tourists to, but have not yet been able to?

„Taiwan has a distinct lack of western style tourist infrastructure in the mountains. In Taroko Gorge, for example, there are lots of places in the lower stretches for tour buses to disgorge their passengers, and a precious few trails that are great but need permits. Then there are some great trails in Hehuan Mountain at the top of the National Park, above 3000m. There is almost nothing in between. I would love to be about to take guests on hikes through the 1500-2500m valleys that cut through the park, but there is no infrastructure to do it at all.

„River tracing is a different story, thankfully, as there are dozens of drainage systems and rivers within an hours drive of Hualien. It really is a paradise for river tracers.“

How will things develop?

„Due to various reasons, the largest being no one knows how beautiful this area is, Hualien’s wilderness has remained relatively pristine and undeveloped. With the recent push by the Taiwanese government to increase the international profile of tourism in Taiwan, many westerners are coming to Taiwan but not finding many options for western style trips. We are trying to fill that gap.“

The company’s website: Hualien Outdoors

Dear readers: What are your favourite places off the beaten track in Taiwan?

I am a German reporter living and working in Taiwan. Read more English posts on this mostly German blog. Follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Plurk, or Google Plus.

English posts you might want to have a look at:

More about my Taiwan book

Asien-Klischees in Deutschland

Stereotype, Vorurteile, Rassismus – zu diesen Themen habe ich hier schon einiges geschrieben. Meist ging es dabei um meine Beobachtungen als Westler in Taiwan. Auch die Situation südostasiatischer Gastarbeiter hierzulande interessiert mich. Aber was erleben Taiwaner und andere Asiaten eigentlich in Deutschland?

Als McDonald’s im Juni begann, in seinen deutschen Restaurants Bubble Tea zu verkaufen, wurde das begleitet von der unfassbar dämlichen „Chan McTi“-Werbekampagne und solchen Videos:

Geärgert hat mich daran nicht nur, dass dem aus Taiwan stammenden Bubble Tea hier offenbar ein „typisch japanisches“ Knallbunt-Schräg-Image verpasst werden sollte („Bubblezaaaiiii!“). Ich fand auch die Darstellung von Herrn McTi als augenrollender, in gebrochenem Deutsch kreischender Asiate reichlich fragwürdig.

Halten wir mal fest: Diese Werbung steht dem, was McDonald’s als Bubble Tea anbietet, an Geschmacklosigkeit kaum nach. Aber ist es angebracht, sie rassistisch zu nennen?

Wo beginnt Rassismus?

Ich bin eher vorsichtig mit diesem Begriff. Als zum Beispiel eine im Hamburg lebende (weiße) Australierin sich in Ihrem Blog über ein Plakat aufregte, auf dem zwei Comedians Schlitzaugen ziehen, hatte ich zur Mäßigung aufgerufen:

Can we all agree that there is a fundamental difference between racism and the (be it satirical or thoughtless, but not evil-minded) use of cultural, national and, yes, sometimes racial stereotypes?

Damals fühlte ich mich nicht berufen, von Rassismus zu sprechen, denn ich war (wie die Autorin) nicht direkt betroffen. Und ich hatte von niemandem gehört, dass er sich verletzt fühlt. Soll ich mir etwa anmaßen, über die Empfindungen Anderer zu spekulieren?

Etwas ganz anderes ist es, wenn jemand selbst sagt: „Stopp! Ich fühle mich rassistisch behandelt.“

Im Fall McDonald’s fand ich schnell heraus, dass viele Menschen Probleme mit der Werbung hatten. Da ist nicht nur die Tatsache, dass das Video auf Youtube aktuell fast dreimal mehr negative Bewertungen hat als positive. Auf Twitter stieß ich auf diesen Eintrag von Calvin Ho aus L.A., der auch ein Blog über Themen wie die „asiatische Diaspora“ schreibt:

Tweet "Racist McDonald's Bubble Tea Commercial"

„Leicht rassistisch“ fand die Werbung auch die Autorin dieses Blogs.

Wie sich das über Twitter entwickelte, und wie McDonald’s sich eine halbherzige Entschuldigung abrang, habe ich in diesem Eintrag zusammengefasst: Wie McDonald’s sich mit Bubble Tea-Werbung Rassismus-Vorwürfe einhandelt

Interview: Zwei Deutsche mit asiatischer Abstammung

Kurz darauf lernte ich in Hamburg Christopher Schmidt kennen. Er hat neben Sprachwissenschaft auch Sinologie studiert und im Studium ein Jahr in Taiwan verbracht. Seine Mutter stammt aus Japan, sein Vater aus Deutschland.

Ich fragte Christopher, ob er seine Meinung zur Bubble-Tea-Werbung von McDonald’s mit mir teilen möchte. Er zog noch einen weiteren Bekannten mit Asien-Connection zu Rate: Ramin Amiri studiert Jura, hat iranische Eltern, ist ebenso wie Christopher in Deutschland geboren und besitzt auch die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit. Beide sind zweisprachig aufgewachsen.

Was war Eure erste Reaktion, als Ihr die Videos von McDonald’s gesehen habt?

Entsetzen über den plumpen Rassismus in der Werbung. Hier werden Vorurteile auf eine besonders herabwürdigende Art und Weise dargestellt.

Was sagt Ihr zur Aussage von McDonald’s, es gehe um eine Persiflage auf asiatische Werbekultur?

Das mag wohl die ursprüngliche Zielsetzung gewesen sein, aber das geht wegen der völligen Ignoranz der kulturellen Unterschiede (z.B. japanische Werbekultur, aber taiwanesischer Bubble Tea) voll daneben, so dass es beleidigend wirkt. Von der Aussprache des Schauspielers, die an das berühmt-berüchtigte Tsching-Tschang-Tschong erinnert, ganz zu schweigen.


Tweet McDonalds: Ironic Ad

Wieso meint Ihr, McDonald’s sollte sich entschuldigen? Wie und wofür?

Wenn man eine bestimmte ethnische Gruppe beleidigt, dann gehört es zum guten Ton, sich zu entschuldigen. Die „Notpology“ dazu von McDonald’s ist eine Frechheit. Diese Art der Entschuldigung ist wertlos, da sie statt den eigenen Fehler anzuerkennen indirekt die Verantwortung dem Beleidigten zuschiebt.

Sehr Ihr hier Rassismus? Wenn ja, gibt es schlimmen und weniger schlimmen Rassismus?

Grundsätzlich sehen wir diese Werbung als derart klischeebehaftetes Spielen mit Stereotypen, dass die Grenze zum Rassismus schon überschritten ist. Sicherlich gibt es schlimmere Form von Rassismus (rassistisch motivierter Rassenhass NSU), aber wir wollen davor warnen den Rassismusbegriff zu eng zu fassen (z.B. Alltagsrassismus). Wir würden den Beteuerungen von McDonald’s, dass eine rassistische Wirkung nicht beabsichtigt gewesen wäre, gerne Glauben schenken, was uns aber angesichts von früheren Kampagnen wie „Los Wochos“ etwas schwer fällt.


Wo zieht Ihr eine Grenze von Rassismus zu Unbedachtheit oder Dummheit?

Als erstes würden wir dafür werben die Aussage, etwas sei rassistisch, nicht mit Rassenhass gleichzusetzen. Viele alltagsrassistische Äußerungen sind oft unbedacht und nicht von einer bewussten Rassenideologie getragen. Uns geht es darum, das Bewusstsein dafür zu schärfen und aufzuklären. Bei dem Verhalten von McDonald’s prangern wir eher die Reaktion des Unternehmens an, die von fehlendem Bewusstsein für die Problematik des Alltagsrassismus zeugt, was man jedoch von einem Weltkonzern erwarten dürfte.

Was für Reaktionen seid Ihr als Deutsche asiatischer Abstammung im Alltag gewöhnlich ausgesetzt? Habt Ihr mit Vorurteilen zu tun?

Ja. Alltagsrassismus ist gegenwärtig. Als Beispiel sei nur die häufige Frage genannt woher man denn eigentlich komme, obwohl man hier geboren und aufgewachsen ist und fließend die Sprache als Muttersprache beherrscht.

(Hervorhebungen von mir)

Im Zuge der unsäglichen „Gift im Bubble Tea“-Medienkampagne ist das Getränk in Deutschland ja mittlerweile in Verruf geraten. Ich vermute mal, ohne es von Taiwan aus kontrollieren zu können, dass Chan McTi sich damit auch erledigt hat. Oder macht er die deutschen McDonald’s-Restaurant noch immer unsicher?

Lesetipp: Meine Beiträge über Deutschland aus Sicht der Taiwaner

Frage an die Leser: Ist „Alltagsrassismus“ in Deutschland ein Problem? Falls ja, wie könnte man das ändern? Falls nein, wie kann man verhindern, dass solche Eindrücke entstehen?

How Giant bikes are produced in Taiwan

Giant has become one of Taiwan’s most recognized brands. Like Asus or Acer in the IT industry, the bicycle producer started out as an original equipment manufacturer (OEM) for Western companies. Beginning in the 1980s, Giant (Chinese: 捷安特 or 巨大) established its own brand.

Many customers in Europe or the U.S. are probably still not aware that it’s a Taiwanese company, and that their Giant bikes may have been produced in Taichung.

Who is the biggest of them all?

With a sales revenue of US$1.56 billion in 2011, Giant defines itself as currently being the world’s largest bicycle manufacturer. The company has 10,000 employees globally. About 2,500 of them work in Taiwan, where Giant was founded 40 years ago.

In 1972, its first year, the company produced less than 4,000 bikes. Giant puts the number at 5.7 million for 2012.

Giant bikes: Made in Taiwan. At least some of them.

When visiting the company headquarters in Taichung with a group of foreign journalists, we had a chance to look inside the manufacturing plant next door. My video gives you an impression of how Giant produces bikes there.

Like so many Taiwanese companies, Giant is taking advantage of low labor costs in China. In 1992, its first factory opened in Kunshan. Today, Giant is operating five plants in China. But unlike other companies, it has not given up on Taiwan as a place for manufacturing.

Giant Bicycles CEO Antony Lo

„Taichung is our head factory,“ Giant Global Group CEO Antony Lo (羅祥安) told us during our visit. „Here, we are making high-end products: carbon fibre and light-weight aluminum.“ In the plant right next to Lo’s office, 2,000 workers are producing parts as well as assembling about 1 million bikes per year.

Giant: not trying to produce as cheap as possible

„We don’t provide anything cheap,“ Lo said. „People are looking for good quality; they are not looking for cheap products.“ His company has positioned itself as a leading provider for rather high-priced sport, fitness and lifestyle bikes. In Germany, for example, typical Giant bikes range from EUR300 to EUR1,000, with the high-end price range between EUR1,500 and EUR3,000. This also includes e-bikes that have recently been gaining popularity. „We like to provide premium quality products at a popular price,“ said Lo.

Giant electric bikes ebikes

The global trend is Giant’s friend: „In the past, most people used their bikes for mobility, transportation, or lifestyle. But now the global trend is that more and more people start cycling for fitness and health reasons.“

That’s why, according to Lo, Giant is seeing strong growth in European markets like Germany and the Netherlands, and in Asian countries like South Korea and Taiwan, where the number of cyclists has increased in recent years.

Giant bikes production Taiwan

Migrant workers making Giant bikes in Taiwan

Because I am very interested in the situation of migrant workers in Taiwan, and had read that Giant Taiwan employs many South-East Asians, I asked Lo how his company is dealing with this situation.

According to him, about 20% of the workers in the Taichung plant are migrant workers — about 350 to 400 people. „We choose them very carefully,“ Lo said. „We have people in Thailand and Indonesia to interview applicants over there. In Taiwan, we have dormitories and people who can speak their language to take care of them.“

Asked if his company pays all migrant workers Taiwan’s minumum wage (currently NT$18,780 / US$645 per month), or if they earn more, Lo said: „We pay according to the skill level. Some of them, we will give more than the minimum wage.“

Giant bikes factory Taiwan

Lo said that Giant has long-term relationships with many migrant workes. Usually, they can work in Taiwan for three years before they have to return to their home countries. „Most of them go home for one month and then come back to us. Many of them have been working with us for more than 10 years.“

Foreign labor is not just relevant in Taiwan, said Lo. For the European market, Giant is operating a manufacturing plant in the Netherlands. Many of the 400-500 workers there are Polish. „I think if you do the balance right, local workers plus guest workers, that’s a good system.“

Giant Anyroad bikes showroom

I published a report about Giant on the Deutsche Welle website. It has been translated into Chinese: 來自台灣的自行車巨頭

Cycling in Taipei

Although Giant is operating Taipei’s public Youbike system, the city is not yet really suited for bike commuting. I attached a camera to my bike and filmed this POV video to give you an impression of what cycling in Taipei feels like:

What is your opinion about Giant bikes? Have you noticed them becoming more popular in your country?

I am a German reporter living and working in Taiwan. Read more English posts on this mostly German blog. Follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Plurk, or Google Plus.

English posts you might want to have a look at:

Taiwanese Diaoyu activist trusts Beijing more than Tokyo

English video interview: Leading Taiwanese Diaoyutai activist Lin Shiaw-shin suggests joint PRC-Taiwan patrols.

The uninhabited Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea are administered by Japan. Like the People’s Republic of China, Taiwan (a.k.a. Republic of China) claims the Diayutai Islands, as they are known in Chinese, as its territory. Some Taiwanese groups have been protesting against Japan for decades.

With the subject making headlines and the ROC government loudly stating its claims, these groups have recently gained more traction. Lin Shiaw-shin (Lin Hsia-hsin, 林孝信) is one of their most influential leaders. I interviewed him for a report on Deutsche Welle.

In the interview, Lin suggests joint patrols by China and Taiwan and does not rule out that the conflict might escalate to a point where shots are fired. This is the video:

On 23 September 2012, Lin’s group staged a large demonstration in Taipei. Some sources report up to 5000 participants. The „Alliance to Protect Diaoyu Islands by Everyone“ was not directly involved with a Taiwanese fishing fleet and Coast Guard ships heading toward the islands and engaging in a water cannon battle with the Japanese side on 25 September.

Because his anti-Japanese activities did not fit the official policy of the time, the ROC government put Lin on its blacklist in the 1970’s and confiscated his passport, preventing him from returning to Taiwan for many years.

After WWII, Japan has consistently been one of Taiwan’s most important allies. The PRC has never ruled out invading Taiwan and is doing everything it can to keep Taiwan off the diplomatic stage.

Interview Transcript

Why did you become a Diaoyutai activist 40 years ago?

(0:30) At that time, we students studying overseas in American colleges, in American graduate studies, we have lots of students from Taiwan over there. And at that time, most of us, we are really angry at the Japanese invasion, the Japanese occupation, and they just try to kick away the fishing people over there. We are just very angry at this kind of Japanese behaviour. And we think we have the full evidence that it belongs to Taiwan, is one of the near isles of Taiwan. It is not part of Japan at all.

What do you demand from the Japanese government?

(1:25) The Diaoyutai belong to us. So we want the Japanese government unconditionally retreat from that island. In the past 40 years plus, their boats just circle around that isles. And our fishing boats when try to fish there, which had been fishing for more than couple hundred years… They were displaced by Japanese boats. We protest against their behaviour.

Why do you think the Japanese are acting the way they are?

(2:25) Number one, we think the Japanese government eagerly wants to have some oil or gas reserves over the continental shelf of Eastern Asia. Because the territory of Japan is not in the continental shelf. So they don’t have any right to exploit the mines over there. Only when they occupy Diaoyutai, they have the right to exploit those oil or natural gas or other minerals under the sea. So I think that is the most important reason why Japan tries to occupy that isles. And next, we think that Japanese militarism try to return to their past, try to enjoy the past glory before WWII. At that time, ever since the Meiji Restauration in the 19th century, they tried to occupy the territory of their neighboring countries or even to occupy a foreign country, like Liuqiu. Liuqiu actually was an independent state before 1879. It was occuped by Japanese government. After WWII, they should be allowed to be independent. But unfortunately, in 1972 they occupy Liuqiu again. And I think that is the same story. The next step is try to occupy the Diaoyutai isles.

Are you satisfied with the actions of Taiwan’s government?

(4:55) Yes, we are satisfied, but we thought the Japanese government or militarism they really don’t disregard our protections. So we would like, want our government to protect more strong. (…) For example, if they don’t retreat from there, then we should try to consider cooperation with mainland China to protect that islands.(…) Maybe they have some joint force to safeguard our fishing boats over there.

So Beijing’s claims on the islands bother you less than Tokyo’s?

(5:55) Because the problem between the different sides of the strait is another problem. We still don’t settle on this one problem. But definitely, Diaoyutai don’t belong to the Japanese government. We have dispute between the mainland China government. But the eventual problem still has to be settled between the people of both sides of the strait. That has nothing to do with the Japanese government. No matter the fact, Diaoyutai doesn’t belong to Japan.

Would PRC forces close to Taiwan’s coast not pose a danger?

(6:45) The problem between Taiwan and mainland China is another bigger problem. According to my judgement, Beijing government won’t do that kind of things, no. They try to peacefully settle the problem between mainland China and Taiwan. It is not in the interest of them to do this way. (So you rather trust the government in Beijing more than…) Yes. Because up to now I don’t think the Diaoyutai problem, they do anything harmful to our people or fishing people at all. They just try to protect against Japan, have the same goal as us.

What do you think of the violent anti-Japanese protests in China?

(7:50) I think it is not very good behaviour. But also I can understand why they have this kind of behaviour. Because Japanese militarism invaded China and caused more than 35 Mio. peoples suffering during their invasion. So most people, most Chinese people in mainland, their relatives or their good friends, or somebody they (?) suffer this kind of invasion. So that’s why they have this kind of emotion. So I can understand their emotion, and I sympathize their feeling, because they are victims.

What do you think about the U.S. backing Japan’s claims?

(8:50) We are not satisfied with the stand of the U.S. goverment. We think they are not useful. (…) Because even if they understand we have dispute, we have, as I just mentioned before, we have the older evidence that Diaoyutai belongs to us. But the U.S. government has just disregarded this evidence, and besides they seem to side with the Japanese government, so we think they are not useful.

Do Taiwanese independence supporters also join your protests?

(9:35) We just quickly formed this kind of coalition. We are a coalition. So this organization, we really don’t care what is your stand in terms of this problem. We welcome all different kind of, or we respect their political attitude, we don’t ask their political attitude. Only problem (?) is you want to protect Diaoyutai against the Japanese invasion.

Could the Diaoyutai conflict escalate into war?

(10:20) According to the past experience, number one, I think Japanese government, they will be restricted by the United States government. It is not in the interest of United States policy to see there is really a hot war break out here. And for the Beijing government in the past 60 years also, I think they are quite reasonable, quite restrict. So I don’t think there is going to have a really big war, but if there happen just to have some some small military events, it’s possible. (So there might be shots fired?) Shots fired, it’s possible.

The View From the Other Side

A Japanese Twitter user sent me this video as a reply. I guess it serves to show how each side thinks they have all truth to themselves.

Personally, I cannot identify with nationalism of any kind. In a letter to the Taipei Times, a reader jokingly suggested that Japan, China and Taiwan should all relinquish their claims on the islands and transfer sovereignty to one of the small Pacific island nations nearby. I think this suggestion has a lot of charme.

I am a German reporter living and working in Taiwan. Read more English posts on this otherwise mostly German blog. You can also follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Plurk, and Google Plus.

English posts you might want to have a look at:

Der Taiwanreporter im deutschen Radio

Neulich hatte ich Gelegenheit, auf WDR 5 eine halbe Stunde über mein Leben in Taiwan zu plaudern. Und über meine Arbeit als Taiwan-Reporter für deutsche Medien.

Taiwan-Interview im WDR

Die Sendung „Neugier genügt“ machte ihrem Namen alle Ehre und lud mich in die Rubrik „Redezeit“ ein.

Von Taiwans musikalischer Müllabfuhr bis zum chinesischen Bürgerkrieg und meinen Buch über Taiwan haben wir eine Menge Themen angesprochen. Hört es Euch selbst an:

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German flag in Taiwan

Taiwan-Interview bei RTI

Auch beim Auslandssender Radio Taiwan International konnte ich schon im Interview über meine Arbeit als Reporter in Taiwan erzählen:

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MP3-Datei (Teil 1)

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MP3-Datei (Teil 2)

Mein Interview mit Egon Bahr

Kürzlich hatte ich ja Gelegenheit, Polit-Legende Egon Bahr über seine Taiwan-Reise, China usw. zu befragen. (Wie kam es dazu?) Nun ist das Interview auch in der Zeitschrift Taiwan Heute erschienen, die vom hiesigen Außenministerium herausgegeben wird (ehemals vom Regierungs-Informationsamt, aber das wurde aufgelöst).

Und ich habe das Video online gestellt:

Das Gespräch im Volltext und Links zu weiteren Berichten stehen drüben bei taiwanreporter.de.